But this is precisely why I point out that Lehi omits any reference to God commanding man to multiply and replenish the earth (Genesis 1:28). Whereas Samuel’s condensed statement omits Lehi’s teaching that we are only free because we are redeemed from the fall by the Messiah, not because God gives us some kind of saving knowledge. As Lehi states: “Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. . Grab the info you need on several topics all in one easy access point! Should we trust someone who's involved with these things? (Joe has a great reading of the Lehite narrative in which the Nephite/Lamanite division is the Fall section of an overarching Creation-Fall-Atonement-Veil structure to 1-2 Nephi; I’m drawing on that a bit here thematically.) 2 Nephi 2:25 Adam Fell: John Tvedtnes has some interesting commentary regarding the fall of Adam (2 Nephi 2:25). How closely connected are these phrases? We might, though, ask why Lehi makes a kind of return here to verse 3. To reiterate, it would seem to me that in the Genesis account man already acts for himself in that he is created in the image of God (being in the image of God plays no role in Lehi, although other Nephites use it). 2 Nephi 2:20. Therefore it is supportive of a primary scripture. Perhaps that is why I like to think that Samuel means knowledge of the truth (but again maybe he isn’t saying that at all, maybe this is just a divergence). Rather than breaking these up into different comments, I’m just going to post it and let the chips fall where they may. The Genesis account, it seems to me, does not require this elaborate system of external structures to bring out the situations where man could act for himself. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.” – c. BC 47, Posted in Adam and Eve's Sin, Thought of the Day about Mormonism, tagged 2 Nephi 2:25, Adam and Eve, Eve thanked God for sin, evil, sin, transgression on 08/06/2014| Why does that logically follow? We discussed this issue back in 2 Ne. A pedestrian example that is helping me think through this issue: I’ve struggled with a really bad cold for the past six weeks. In order to set up an oppositional element in the Garden he imputes evil to the serpent (a point not made in Genesis) and associates the serpent with an angel that fell from heaven because he sought that which was evil (borrowing Isaiah 14:2-15). So Alma turns to (among other sources – I’ve also written on his use of Abinadi) Lehi. Even if the wicked wish not to be resurrected and wish to “become extinct both soul and body” and wish not be “brought to stand in the presence of God, to be judged” they must resurrect. They don’t seem to resolve any particular theological concern. Rather, Clark argues, “good and evil” refers to a legal judgment or the position to declare what is good and what is bad: Judgment in the OT is ultimately a matter for God. - John 8:32, Moroni, Comoro off the coast of East Africa. If that is what Samuel is doing he may drawing upon Lehi: and men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil; and the law is given unto men. Why does Mormonism have so many false doctrines about our galaxy and the Lord? Today we’re looking at major contradictions in the BoM, and the Pearl of Great Price that Mr. Joseph Smith, Jr. penned. For Lehi, it would appear that Adam and Eve could act for themselves the moment two opposing enticements were brought into existence and the forbidden fruit is not required. So while I’m free to choose to go to the doctor (and presumably get more antibiotics) or try to suffer through it on my own, I don’t know that I am “free” in the fullest sense of the word. I this it’s difficult to pull apart who Samuel is referring to, and I wonder if he is intentionally weaving together the words of multiple individuals: Lehi: “They have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day” (2 Nephi 2:26). God commands Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish. And I realize I may be misreading “to do good.” But at the very least, Lehi never grants the possibility that Adam and Eve were obedient to God’s commandment during the time they abstained from the forbidden fruit (as others have recognized). Quotes & false prophecies from Mormon leaders. Inherent in the ability to be free to make wise decisions is knowledge. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. Consequently, I’ll add to the discussion, if I can, just by doing a bit of theological work on the text itself, ignoring all the complications of subsequent work on these ideas by Alma, Samuel, and others. Of course we have the “free according to the flesh” construction in verse 27, but that could simply be Lehi referring to “free to act” construction. I don’t know how to set that fact aside, how not to factor it into things. Nephi later used his father’s phrase “press forward” ( 1 Nephi 8:24) in a great doctrinal discourse (see 2 Nephi 31:20). "...for I know whom I have believed..." 2 Tim. I’m going to come back to verses 26-27, but first I want to come back to a discussion led by Sheila on 2 Nephi 2:10. Find out why their monthly messages aren't biblical! But is that only because Adam and Eve could not die, or is it because they lacked the ability to distinguish between good and evil? Here again, if we’re to get anywhere with the Nephite theology of atonement, we’re going to have to think carefully about how death—mere temporal death—has effects both temporal and spiritual, about how sin is somehow a function of death. So I’m happy to concede that there are two sorts of death. The knowledge condemns you. Immortality is not necessarily equated with righteousness. Like you, I want to say that the free in Lehi means free from the captivity of the devil (captivity in verse 27 corresponds well with the idea of free). Why didn’t this particular idea get passed on? But again, that doesn’t mean I don’t agree the influence of God’s atonement applies to people in every age. Here are two: 1) free as in permitted or allowed (Helaman 14:30 “ye are permitted to act for yourselves”; “free to choose” 2 Ne. Does God speak to prophets with glowing stones in a hat? Why do we say that merely because Adam dies for good never to rise again that he cannot do good? Are comments like "blacks are slaves mentally" really from the God of the Bible or racist men? Mormonism's True Agenda; Saving Souls or Ruling America? I’m not entirely sure what you mean. 23 And they would have had no children. If we give ourselves to the truth of the preached word, we become oriented to the resurrection, and we begin to act in a non-sinful way. 2 Nephi 2:25 Adam fell that men might be, and men are, that they might have joy. Samuel: “Ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves…He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you.” (Helaman 14:30-31). For the moment, just work with me.) Lehi wants his audience to accept that God has provided opposing enticements that entice Adam and Eve one way other or the other, thereby allowing them to act for themselves, and that simultaneously Adam and Eve are unaware at a cognitive level of their being enticed one way or the other because they lack knowledge of good and evil. So 2 Nephi 1-2 constitute one unit and 2 Nephi 3 a separate unit. Isn’t this the creation? The analogy has limits, however, as the causes and solutions to both of these situations are entirely distinct. Posted in Mormon Dilemmas, tagged 2 Nephi 2:25, Book of Mormon, Doctrines of Salvation 1:114, evil and good coexist, false gospel, false prophet Joseph Smith, Isaiah 5:20, Witchcraft, yin yang on 05/28/2014| But I agree with you that Lehi probably is using it to mean discern or distinguish one from the other. that they may bring the remainder of their brethren to the knowledge of the truth; therefore there are many who do add to their numbers daily. (2 Ne. I think your point regarding Samuel’s phrase “God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free” is interesting. . 2:10). Ishtar, an Assyrian and Babylonian Goddess known as the Queen of Heaven, Moses 5:13; "And Satan came among them, saying, I am also a son of God...", Witnessing tracts & handouts for missions and classes at your church. 1) Regarding verse 25, in a previous comment, I attempted to populate all the “missing” or unstated opposites: “And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. Most radically, we have Jacob in 2 Nephi 9 saying that death is the very anchor of sin, since we’d remain in utter sinfulness without the resurrection being a reality. It is temporal because it will only last for a time and all will be resurrected; their body and spirits will be reunited to die no more (Alma 11:45). We might say it radically: we can’t do good so long as we’re irrevocably mortal. This juxtaposition has made me wonder if the phrase in 2 Nephi 2 actually refers to the Second Coming. That’s what interests the Nephites, that time between learning of the plan of redemption and our own eventual deaths and resurrections, that “time of probation.” That’s why the resurrection (Christ’s, with only the promise of my own) uproots sin but doesn’t eradicate it. Lehi tells us what the serpent said to Eve but doesn’t tell us what happened afterwards. Thank you John for continuing our discussions. Whether there is one redeeming event or two, does not factor into my analysis. The small number of words involved and the naturalness of gramatical constructions like this makes things like this statistically insignificant. “I can judge between thee and God . Other Bible translations of “fulness of time” in Galatians 4:4 include “But when the set time had fully come” and “But when the right time came” and “But when the appropriate time had come.”  So, I have a difficult time reading this other than gesturing at that one special moment in time that is not repeated ever. But then there’s the resurrection. 3)  I would like to know more about the context of your search for the phrase “good and evil.”  My own searches show that the phrase “good from evil” occur very frequently in the context of the larger phrase “distinguishing good from evil” or “discern good from evil” in addition to “know good from evil.”  So to recap, here is what we have:   The KJV Bible never uses the English construction “know good from evil” but it does use the construction “good and evil.”  It would seem that 17th to 19th century English texts often use the construction “distinguish good from evil” or “discern good from evil” and “know good from evil.”  The Book of Mormon uses both constructions “good and evil” and “good from evil.”  Based on this alone, what does this tell us, if anything? 2) Same question as before. How significant is it that Lehi doesn’t talk about the Fall being reversed or overcome? Wherefore they Adam would have remained in a state of innocence—having no joy, for they he knew no misery; doing no good, for they he knew no sin. Thanks for your thoughts. Lehi is saying Adam and Eve could act for themselves in the Garden but couldn’t do evil or good. By transgressing the commandments and partaking the forbidden fruit Adam is cut off temporally and spiritually and therefore requires a redemption. That’s the message I get from this verse. God does not condemn sinners. Now, I can anticipate someone saying that Alma and Lehi are saying the same thing. Create a free website or blog at WordPress.com. Does it change things if Samuel is employing Lehi as but one of his witnesses? 2:3, 26; 11:7). But I don’t want to make too much of that because I don’t think Lehi is focused on knowledge. And it seems that, so long as we remain under the sway of death, we can’t get out from under sin. ( Log Out /  Bracketing for a moment any discussion of possible underlying Hebrew (only focusing on English), notice how Lehi changes the phrase from “good and evil” to “good from evil.”  It is significant that this construction that does not appear in the KJV Bible (leaving only the serpent’s language unmodified). Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.” (Alma 41:4, 7). 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